Wikipedia:Help desk

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 97.71.173.217 (talk) at 16:21, 21 January 2022 (→‎Reticon Company:: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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The Wikipedia help desk is a place where you can ask questions about how to use or edit Wikipedia. For other types of questions, use the search box or the reference desk.
  • For other types of questions, see Help:Contents and Are you in the right place? If you have comments about a specific article, use that article's talk page.
  • Do not provide your email address or any other contact information. Answers will be provided on this page only.
  • We are all volunteers, so sometimes replies can take some time. Please be patient. Check back on this page to see if your question has been answered.
  • If you need real-time help, you can join our IRC help channel, #wikipedia-en-help.
  • If you are a new editor, you might prefer to ask your question at the Teahouse, an area specifically for new users to get help with editing, article creation and general Wikipedia use, in a friendly environment.
  • Remember to sign your post by adding four tildes (~~~~) at the end of your post. Alternatively, you can click on the signature icon (Wikipedia edit toolbar signature icon) on the edit toolbar.

January 18

Question about uploading an image

Hi Everyone,

About a week ago, i recieved some guidance on uploading an image with an email template, but i realize that the user I am recieving the image from may not be using wikipedia, therefore they wont be able to upload the image themselves.

I wanted to add an image of Vladimir Torchilin to his Wikipedia page, but could not find an image that allowed for free use on the internet. I went on to email him, and he sent me an image of himself to use. How would i go about using this? Do i need anything further from him to allow me to use the image? Thanks, --RealPharmer3 (talk) 01:28, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

See WP:Donating copyrighted materials. --David Biddulph (talk) 06:05, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
How could we use the image of him, without having him create a wikipedia account and uploading himself? Is there a way he can give me permission to upload it on his behalf? @David Biddulph: --RealPharmer3 (talk) 16:35, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
See WP:Donating copyrighted materials. --David Biddulph (talk) 18:41, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Request for someone to review Tiancheng Lou

Hi. Can someone please review and mark this article? It has managed to be featured as did you know on the front page. Not sure how it is able to be approved for front page viewing but not still not marked down as reviewed.

-Imcdc (talk) 01:56, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Imcdc now done. Did you know and Wikipedia:New pages patrol are separate processes, so either can be done first. TSventon (talk) 14:06, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Leader of Opposition in Lok Sabha (India)

Discussion that should be taking place on Talk:Leader of the Opposition in Lok Sabha, not here

This user Venkat TL is adding Adhir Ranjan Chowdhury as the Leader of Opposition in Lok Sabha but he is not Leader of Opposition, he is the leader of INC in lok sabha. The post is vacant since 2014 has no party has 10% (55 seats) seats in Lok Sabha expect BJP. No official government website mention him as Leader of opposition in Lok Sabha. [[1]] [[2]] [[3]]

Nitesh003(TALK) 09:27, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
  • "Chowdhury to stay as leader of Opposition in Lok Sabha". The Pioneer. 15 July 2021. Retrieved 18 January 2022.

You are using a site that says it was last updated in 2015. Check the recent secondary sources I have added into the article. [P.S.: You should have started this thread on Talk:Leader of the Opposition in Lok Sabha. --Venkat TL (talk) 09:52, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Why they should update when there is no leader of opposition. Nitesh003(TALK) 09:54, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
Go and ask Modi why he is not updating. Venkat TL (talk) 10:03, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
Comment with facts.
[[4]] Nitesh003(TALK) 10:09, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
at least 55 seats are needed to become official opposition party but congress has only 55 seats. Nitesh003(TALK) 10:12, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
Why are you posting old articles. I am not wasting my time in responding here anymore. Go and talk to The Pioneer (India) and fight with them Venkat TL (talk) 10:14, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
Is The Pioneer more reliable than Government sources. Nitesh003(TALK) 10:20, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
In comparison to old government site that was not updated since 2015, of course. It is high time that you read and understand the difference between Primary, secondary and tertiary sources. Venkat TL (talk) 10:23, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
"Adhir Ranjan Chowdhury will
remain the Leader of Congress in Lok Sabha" from the above source you provided. Nitesh003(TALK) 10:26, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Family of Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge

Ref number 118 and 125 - (the exact same refs, please do the "double-up" thing if you can) - are from a pdf; is that reasonable? They don't look correct to me , please help. Thank you very much 49.198.41.28 (talk) 10:15, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

They seem to have been added in your edits. The process to deal with it is at WP:NAMEDREFS. --David Biddulph (talk) 10:22, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

How to create my own Wikipedia page?

I have already logged in and provided all the relevant information about myself in the sandbox of Wikipedia now I want to publish the same in wiki page. Kindly provide me the process to publish the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pushpa Bajaj (talkcontribs) 10:28, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

@Pushpa Bajaj Please read Wikipedia:Autobiography. Venkat TL (talk) 10:39, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
Also, your draft is not in English, so doesn't belong in the English Wikipedia, and you have no references to demonstrate the subject's notability. --David Biddulph (talk) 10:42, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Name Shivaji should be revised to Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shivaji

Please revise the name Shivaji to Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj.

Regards, Jeevan Chogale — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.48.216.226 (talk) 11:04, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

No. Please read WP:COMMONNAME Venkat TL (talk) 11:11, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
From a quick look at the references, there could be an argument that "Shivaji Maharaj" is the WP:COMMONNAME - although I suspect "Maharaj" is a honorific suffix in which case MOS:HON applies and it should not be included. (Any editor with any sort of knowledge about Indian honorifics is welcome to correct my guesses.) TigraanClick here for my talk page ("private" contact) 11:25, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Navbar question

could you please tell me how to figure out the template:Navbar? Maybe if possible, could you please provide an example of its usage, or else simply explain what it is used for, and how it is used? I just went to view that template, and clicked "what links here." that took me to alkali metals, but I didn't see any link or transclusion to that template.

I've been here quite a while, so I should probably already know this, but I seem to be having some trouble. I appreciate any help. thanks. Please ping me when you reply. ---Sm8900 (talk) 🌍 12:52, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

oh wait, I think I get it now. {{navbar}} is simply the three tiny links in the upper-left corner of a template, that provide the links labeled as "V T E," to edit the navbox? So I guess that the only actual template that I would use for this is {{navbox}}? thanks. ---Sm8900 (talk) 🌍 13:05, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
@Sm8900: {{Navbar}} only makes "V T E" or similar links. What to use depends on what you want to do. Most editors never use {{Navbar}} directly but may use {{Navbox}} and other navigation templates which call {{Navbar}}. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:15, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

New editors

Hello, can you tell me is there a place for new editors, in a sense that you can go trough some process that follow you all the way? Like, semi automatic editing. I was talking with friend of mine who knows little bit, but he cannot tell me that much. Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nox Lumen (talkcontribs) 15:12, 18 January 2022 (UTC) --Nox Lumen (talk) 15:13, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Hello Nox Lumen. I left a generic welcome message on your talk page, which has some helpful links. In addition to the links in that message, you may be looking for something like The Wikipedia Adventure, which is a sort of gamified tutorial. Let me know if you have questions or are looking for something different. ~ ONUnicorn(Talk|Contribs)problem solving 15:22, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
There's also a place for newcomers to ask questions like here at the Help desk located at WP:TEA. ― Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 15:26, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
WP:TUTORIAL. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:39, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Information on band's own website is wrong?

I came across Draft:GAUPA which states that "gaupa" means "lynx" in Swedish. I speak Swedish quite well and had never heard of that word, Swedish for "lynx" is "lodjur". According to Wiktionary, "gaupa" means "lynx" in Icelandic, not Swedish. However, even the band's own website claims "gaupa" means "lynx" in Swedish, which is odd considering they seem to be Swedish themselves and don't understand their own language. Should Wikipedia perpetuate this erroneous information because it's based directly on the source, or mention that it is erroneous? JIP | Talk 15:18, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

@JIP, I'd never heard it either, but lo and behold, according to sv-WP they have a point. I rather like "Kattegöba." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:38, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
See also "göpa" in Svenska Akademiens ordbok. —Wasell(T) 15:41, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
Can't argue with S. Lagerlöf. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:43, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
@JIP: In general, it's possible that two reliable sources disagree with each other. In that case, the article can state something like "While X states this fact,[1] Y states this other fact.[2]" Hope this helps, and happy editing! GoingBatty (talk) 16:36, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
  • The Swedish Wikipedia article, cited above, states "Folkligt kallades lodjur förr för göpa" which google translate leads me to believe says "People used to call lynx "göpa". Seems cromulent. --Jayron32 16:41, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Reference X
  2. ^ Reference Y

Using images I created from pictures taken of a mural in Mexico

I have been given 7 days to address issues related to images I used in an article about a mural in Oaxaca City, Mexico. Here is a link to the article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oaxaca_en_la_historia_y_en_el_mito. First question. Can I discuss this here or do I need to connect to folks at Wiki Commons? If I do, I would be grateful if you could provide a link to where I have to go.

If this is the right spot to raise my question, you will see on every image is a 7 day deletion warning. I added some text today to explain my right to use the images. Is that sufficient. The artist died a few years ago and I am in touch with his daughter. If I need to get some sort of permission from her, please tell me what it is.

Thanks for your consideration ArbyBB (talk) 15:35, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

You should probably go to the Commons Help Desk. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 15:37, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Nonsense

Our article The source
... a historical shaman priestess who became one of the most important Fujian goddesses and chief deity of the Lüshan Sect ... one of the most important goddesses in Southeast China (the chief deity of the Lushan sect).... A historical shaman priestess who became ...

can be copyright violation? "blah blad is a actor and one of the successful actors in Indian Cinema or chair of the Hindi Film Org" also copyrighted ? For further information User talk:VocalIndia#Speedy deletion of Chen Jinggu VocalIndia (talk) 16:35, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

VocalIndia, referring an argument to a different page can be helpful, though I think Copyright problems would be a better place than the Help desk. Copying just one side of an argument to a different page is FORUMSHOPPING, and is unhelpful and disruptive. Either take it to Copyright problems (being careful not to present it in a one-sided manner), or else follow the procedures in WP:dispute resolution. --ColinFine (talk) 18:16, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

please remove my photo!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Smiths Please can you remove my photograph of the Smiths as I'm finding people think they can use it free! I shot the Smiths at the Salford Lads club in 1985 see my website www.smithsphotos.com

many thanks Stephen Wright

S — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.151.17.30 (talk) 16:48, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

It looks like that image is tagged as fair use. Please go here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SmithsPromoPhoto_TQID_1985.jpg and review the fair use info. If you still think it is not fair use you can email copyright@wikimedia.org. Naleksuh (talk) 16:49, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
Wikipedia "fair use" is not well understood by a lot of people, many of whom seem to take a very relaxed attitude toward obeying copyright law in any case. As with any other image on the Internet, a person should not copy the image unless first determining its copyright status. Wikipedia's "fair use" criteria are very stringent, and when we use such an image in Wikipedia, we try very hard to make sure we are complying with the law. We do not assert that our fair use somehow applies to other users of the material, in fact, quite the opposite: we assert that it does not provide a fair use rationale for any use outside of Wikipedia. I am not a lawyer. I suggest you contact a lawyer about using the provisions of the DMCA, specifically the use of "takedown notices", to force non-Wikipedia sites to take down those images. -Arch dude (talk) 21:54, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
I have a minor nitpick, Arch dude. "Fair use" is a concept from US law and jurisprudence that applies to any site, Wikipedia or not, with the same criteria. Wikipedia does have an "advantage" over other websites: legal analysis of a fair use claim starts (cf. Fair use#U.S. fair use factors) with a "purpose and character of the use" prong which a Wikipedia article will almost always pass and a post on social media will very often fail.
In addition to that, the English Wikipedia does have additional criteria for use which restrict further than fair use would allow, both to create a legal safety margin (e.g. low-resolution images are less likely to fail the prongs of "substantial portion use" and "effect on potential market") and to discourage the use of non-free works (because free licenses are good yada yada - for instance the "no non-free photograph of a living person" rule is entirely disconnected from legal concerns). In other language Wikipedias, they disallow fair use entirely and require a free license. TigraanClick here for my talk page ("private" contact) 10:14, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
I can snip a version of that photo from Smiths' website that gives me a 55 kb image with more of the background visible. So I'm not sure how deleting Wikipedia's "fair use" image would help avoid piracy by third parties. The image in the article here is only 17 kb. Mike Turnbull (talk) 10:36, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
@Tigraan: I agree with you, and I thought that I said what you said, but to restate: Our "fair use" rationale applies to our use of the image on Wikipedia. If another site chooses to assert "fair use" for their use of the same image, then that site will need a "fair use" rationale that applies specifically to their site. They might choose to copy the wording of our rationale, but it is entirely the responsibility of each separate site to ensure that whatever the wording they use, it applies to the way they use the image on their site and their rationale must appear on their site. -Arch dude (talk) 18:57, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
I doubt that OP will ever read this, but I want to clarify something. First, I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. Fair use is not a legal right to use an image, but an affirmative defense in court for the acceptable use of non-free content. Wikipedia's fair use rationale on the photo's page essentially just lays out preemptively what rationale would be used if this were to be litigated. It is based on what is most commonly accepted in US case law, which we use to set our own criteria for the limited use of non-free content. You can read Wikipedia's policy here: WP:NFCC. Wikipedia's criteria are deliberately narrower and more conservative than the commonly accepted criteria for fair use in the United States; it is unlikely that Wikipedia would lose such a case after adhering to its criteria. Other websites using the version of the image found on Wikipedia may or may not be in violation of copyright law, regardless of whether or not they publicize their own fair use rationale. Copyright owners typically see more success by seeking redress with these third party potential violators rather than with Wikipedia. Best wishes, AlexEng(TALK) 04:57, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
Wow! Thanks for sharing this one! I continue to remain intrigued by this topic (i.e. Fair use) and you have laid it out here brilliantly (at least for me to understand). Ktin (talk) 05:06, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

reporting a person/company trying to charge for help

I got this today (i've already created my page which is live)

Anna Harrison <anna@wikipedialegendsllc.com> 10:23 AM (1 hour ago) to me

Hi Christine, I hope this email finds you well.

We have received an online inquiry that you are looking to create a Wikipedia page, below is the process we follow for the creation of a Wikipedia page:

Once you're done signing up with us, we would send you a brief form to fill in which there will be certain questions asked based on your personal or company profile.

Once we take on the subject, we assign a research team who conducts full in-depth research into your online presence, of course, you're also welcome to send us articles, information, or general guidance if you like. Once all research is conducted we then move on to inputting that information into a draft with Wikipedia's guidelines and the writing style guide, then we send you a draft for your comments and approval before moving forward with publishing the entry on Wikipedia.

The standard timeline is between 60-90 days.

We'll provide you with the 100% ownership rights of the page so that you can, later on, add more as per your needs and requirements.

Our package ranges from $699-$1999 depending on what your requirements are.

Please find the details of the packages below:

Wikipedia Legend Standard Plan: Cost: $699.00 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nikkipoy (talkcontribs) 17:33, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

@Nikkipoy: Per WP:SCAM, "If someone contacts you with such an offer, please send a copy of the email, including headers, to paid-en-wp@wikimedia.org." Thanks! GoingBatty (talk) 17:54, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
Also, help is free here on Wikipedia. No one can make you pay for help. Also, you can't pay to make an article. If the subject of your article is not notable then no amount of money will make it into an article. ― Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 18:08, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
Luckily it appears your article has been accepted so the email wouldn't be of much use to you anyways. Also, per WP:OWN, no one owns any page/article on Wikipedia. ― Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 18:09, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
The claim "We'll provide you with the 100% ownership rights of the page so that you can, later on, add more as per your needs and requirements." is an outright lie. The company can't provide "100% ownership rights" to any page as the concept of "ownership rights" does not exist on Wikipedia. On Wikipedia, no one "owns" any page or is in any sort of authority position over it. The company cannot stop other Wikipedia editors from editing the page they have created. In short, the message the company sent is a lie. JIP | Talk 18:49, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
Would be curious if we can ask them -- "Please can you share some samples of your work on Wikipedia". Ktin (talk) 05:08, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Ssentongo Haruna

Template:Formerly

How do I protect my user page my account has been blocked and edited by Ndj-de and other users they abuse and delete my information I believe Wikipedia is not for pay they want me to pay them they keep hacking my account and abuse people and late they say it's me abusing How ever much am a new user please be considerate of this they even blocked my friends account Ssentongo Haruna And they removed him from the ugandans net worth list Ssentongo haruna has a net worth of 420usd he has a right to be on that list {{cite|web https://www.watchdoguganda.com/business/20210312/110284/entreprising-sentongo-haruna-builds-empire-worth-usd420m-brick-by-brick.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kareninaq mine (talkcontribs) 18:25, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

@Kareninaq mine: Your Wikipedia account has never been blocked, and only your user talk page has been edited by one person. I assume you have questions about List of Ugandans by net worth, which has been semiprotected, preventing unregistered and new accounts from directly editing the page.
Unless your user page has been the subject of vandalism or something similar, requests for protection are unlikely to be granted.
Taking a further look at the article's history this appears to be sockpuppetry at work, and may involve the blocked user Sentongo Haruna. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 18:32, 18 January 2022 (UTC)


Halo am requesting unblock of Ssentongo Haruna account was blocked globally He did not abuse any Njd-de , Drm310 and pahunkat keep distributing his account please protect it and allow him login into again Add him to the list of ugandans with net worth again thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kareninaq mine (talkcontribs) 18:59, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Izaaqnewton refers. --David Biddulph (talk) 19:03, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Image-use question

Would I be able to use this image under the "Public domain" copyright information option? It was uploaded by http://www.e-nebraskahistory.org/, an "Official Nebraska Government Website". Seasider53 (talk) 18:52, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

@Seasider53: I believe no. First off all, its better to ask These questions at WP:MCQ, since that is where the experts are. However, I currently don't see a reason why this should be PD. {{PD-US-Gov}} only applies to works created by federal government employees in their duties as such(I see no evidence of this being the case here), it's a file from 1986 (so far from being public domain due to age) and last but not least the film's right usage terms seem to have non-commercial and no-derivate restrictions. Victor Schmidt mobil (talk) 21:27, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Rules of Doxxing

Hi guys

Could anyone let me know how wikipedia deals with doxxing? Content on a wikipedia article is abetting in doxxing, which has been escalated to newsworthy stories in my country.

I have made my case for offending content to be removed but some very passionate users are insisting that the content is both relevant for some reason and not a breach of privacy.

Thank you. Declanhx (talk) 19:07, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

The rules about doxxing are at WP:DOXXING. However, if your issue is with who owns Killichassie, I think the source for the claims are two published biographies of its owner - this information is in the public domain, it's not private information that we need to keep secret. An exceedingly notable person owning and living in a reasonably notable building seems worth mentioning in the article about the building, no? Girth Summit (blether) 19:13, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
Holy crap. The people you are edit warring with about this are two site Administrators, whom of whom is an oversighter. You will struggle to find anyone who knows more about our rules on doxxing - listen to what they are telling you on the article talk page. Girth Summit (blether) 19:17, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
User has been full blocked for editwarrring. (Changed from a partial block) ― Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 19:57, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
1) Declan has been blocked before for edit-warring.
2) I think the Streisand effect is also in danger of kicking in, if it hasn't already. --Orange Mike | Talk 22:02, 18 January 2022 (UTC)


January 19

Search all of Wikipedia

The box in the upper right says "Search Wikipedia", but it only searches the English Language Wikipedia. Is there a place that I can search all of Wikipedia (all of the language wikipedias at least). I guess I can go to google, but I like having the more advanced features...Naraht (talk) 01:34, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

I don't think so. The search box at https://www.wikipedia.org/ lets you pick any language, but "all" doesn't seem to be an option. RudolfRed (talk) 02:00, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
You can use Wikidata. Zoozaz1 (talk) 02:06, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
That is apparently only searching Wikidata, not Wikipedia. --David Biddulph (talk) 02:12, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
David Biddulph yup. Tried that already.Naraht (talk) 20:43, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
The best way to do that is probably Google. Search for "[term] site:wikipedia.org". Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}}talk 03:08, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
Sdkb Quite familiar with that, and have used it to search for errors across languages (like "John Hopkins University") which essentially add -site:en.wikipedia.org to focus on the ones outside English. But that definitely doesn't have the ability to do insource: or regex searches.Naraht (talk) 20:43, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

The Wikipedia Library and ... a block?

So I received a notice that I can access the super neato sounding Wikipedia Library. When I tried it says I have a block. I've been editing Wikipedia for many, many years and have no idea what that is about. Almost all of my edits are on the English Wikipedia, with some visual content added to WikiCommons. Other than that, iirc, I've made a few edits to the Spanish and German language Wikis. Literally none of them, as far as I can see anywhere, mentions a block of any kind. Ditto my entire talk page on English Wikipedia. I'd love to use this resource for helping with articles, but I don't know what is the cause for the hiccup. Any help would be most gratefully accepted. Thank you. --Surv1v4l1st Talk|Contribs 03:25, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

You were blocked on the Indonesian Wikipedia for having an unacceptable username (despite having made zero edits there). * Pppery * it has begun... 03:41, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
@Surv1v4l1st: Special:CentralAuth/Surv1v4l1st shows a block at id.wikipedia.org (Indonesian Wikipedia) where you have no edits. Your account was created automatically, probably because you viewed a page while logged in. Google Translate says "Invalid username: please change". Google Translate on the linked page says: "Also, watch out for the uppercase i , the lowercase L , and the number 1 , which can look the same (I/l/1) in some fonts . Another example is the letter O and the number 0 (O/o/0) . The use of letters that can be misleading is highly discouraged, given the abuse that has occurred in the past." There is a User:Survivalist but they have no account at idwiki so you cannot be claimed to impersonate them there. It seems very unreasonable to disallow access for you. When originally reading the no-block rule, I did think it would hit some users unfairly. I don't know whether you have other options than to request an unblock at idwiki. They have id:Template:Unblock. PrimeHunter (talk) 03:58, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
It is possible for Wikipedia library staff to override the "not blocked" requirement, but I'm not sure what the process for requesting that is. * Pppery * it has begun... 04:03, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
Choosing English at Special:GlobalPreferences or id:Special:Preferences may help you navigate the site if you request unblocking. You can edit your own talk page. PrimeHunter (talk) 04:06, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
https://wikipedialibrary.wmflabs.org/about/ says: "If your account is blocked on one or more Wikimedia projects, you may still be granted access to The Wikipedia Library. You will need to contact the Wikipedia Library team, who will review your blocks." The bottom has a contact link to https://wikipedialibrary.wmflabs.org/contact/. PrimeHunter (talk) 04:13, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
Many thanks for the research on this one. I would have not guessed it was the Indonesian language Wiki. I've never edited there, nor have any knowledge of the language. I will try to figure out how to request an unblock there, but will admit navigating that site may be difficult. I did also email Wikipedia Library, but haven't heard back as of yet. Anyway, thanks again for the assistance; I greatly appreciate it. Now to find the way forward.--Surv1v4l1st Talk|Contribs 04:19, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
OK, I think (after some futzing about) got the unblock request done on the Indonesian side. As mentioned before, request has been submitted to the Library. Thanks again. :) --Surv1v4l1st Talk|Contribs 04:31, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Difference from Teahouse

What is the difference between this and the Teahouse? It seems like the same concept. Philosophy2 (talk) 05:55, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

@Philosophy2: not much difference. The Teahouse is meant to be a particularly non-threatening place where brand new people can ask very basic questions without being judged. But in practice, they are pretty much interchangeable.--Gronk Oz (talk) 06:02, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
@Philosophy2: The Help Desk is meant for anyone to request assistance or ask a question. The Teahouse is intended for new and/or inexperienced users to do the same, as Gronk Oz suggests, in a friendlier atmosphere geared towards them. 331dot (talk) 11:23, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
@Philosophy2: Generally, the tone at the Tea House is more gentle and forgiving, taking everyone's word that they are naive innocents who need special care and counsel in a quiet, non-judgmental atmosphere intended to nurture and advance the new user. The Help Desk is positioned as a blunter, more skeptical audience of brusque but highly competent tech support types who diagnose your troubles and send you on your way. --Orange Mike | Talk 17:28, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
I had to look up what "brusque" meant on Wikitionary. I learned a new word today, thank you.Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 17:50, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

RTL punctuation

At Dona, Dona#Lyrics, the punctuation of the Yiddish original appears before each line, at least on my computer using Google Chrome. Does that look the same for others? If so, how can it be fixed? ◅ Sebastian 09:40, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Sebastian. You can just edit it to move the punctuation: I've done so for the first verse. --ColinFine (talk) 12:04, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Search icon

Im having problems based on the search icon or button, i can't search whats in my interest or even type what i need to search what could be the reaaon? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A03:2880:31FF:5:0:0:FACE:B00C (talk) 11:46, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Since as far as I know nobody else has reported this problem, it is probably in your browser. The best place to ask about technical problems is WP:VPT; but it is unlikely that anybody can help you if you don't specify the problem more: what system are you on? What app or browser are you running? What are you doing or trying to do, and what result do you see? --ColinFine (talk) 12:11, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
Hi there! Do you still experience the problem after you turn off your device and turn it back on again? GoingBatty (talk) 15:41, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Edits to your entry on Patrick Poivre d'Arvor

Dear Sir or Madam,

I write to ask for you to edit the entry on Patrick Poivre d'Arvor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Poivre_d%27Arvor You ought to include a major sexual assault controversy, in his page.

(You have already done so for example on the page of Nicolas Hulot, similarly embroiled in a sexual assault controversy with numerous accusations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Hulot - and I thank you for that.)

Patrick Poivre d'Arvor is the target of complaints for rape and sexual assault or sexual harassment. In total, 27 women have denounced sexual violence by the former presenter of TF1. Two of these women were minors at the time of the alleged facts. Eleven have filed complaints.

Best regards,

Etelle Higonnet

Hullo, friend. You may be able to attempt this edit yourself, as long as you can back it up with reliable sources. You can also submit an edit request here if you would like. Thanks, EDG 543 (message me) 15:54, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
EDG 543 you are correct that the IP editor could, in theory, introduce this content for themselves, but I think a bit more needs to be said. IP editor, you should be very careful to ensure that what you write complies with the policy on biographies of living people. You must not write potentially controversial material about an identifiable living person anywhere on Wikipedia without providing a reliable source to back up your assertions. I considered deleting this thread, and revision deleting a whole bunch of diffs here, because these accusations were unevidenced in your post. However, I took a moment to see whether I could find any reliable sources supporting what you had written, and came across this, this and this. So, there are reliable sources that could support some additions to the article - just be sure to cite them, and to stick carefully to what they say. Girth Summit (blether) 21:39, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
That was indeed top news for a time in France. The fr-wikipedia article section about this (fr:Patrick_Poivre_d'Arvor#Visé_par_plusieurs_enquêtes_pour_viols_et_agressions_sexuelles) is roughly as long as the entire en-wikipedia article is, and there is a line in the lead. If the IP editor does not change this themselves, ping me and I will try to write a couple of sentences. TigraanClick here for my talk page ("private" contact) 14:11, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Error in Talk:Galton Board?

Is there something wrong with Talk:Galton Board?

If I view it in the Wikipedia App (on my Galaxy Tablet), there are 11 headings, but "Three dimensional bean machine", "Why a rectangle of pegs?" and "Probabilities of 1000 runs of the machine" show the same contents as "But how does it work?"

But if I choose "View article in browser" and then change to the Talk page, those three headings don't appear at all ... BUT two of them appear under the "Bean machine, bean made wrong?" heading, under an "Extended content" banner - some sort of formatting error? 194.193.168.77 (talk) 16:06, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

In desktop view it looks fine. The app and mobile browser may be getting confused by {{Collapse top}} hidden content. RudolfRed (talk) 18:03, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

To wall of shame, or to not wall of shame

(Apologies for the shakespeare reference in the header, I Couldn't help myself) Hello! So I recently encountered an IP who is currently block for disruptive editing and the IP removed their most recent warning and block message. I know this is technically ok per WP:NOTWALLOFSHAME, however the IP is also blocked. So what should I do in this case? Revert the edit and request their tpa revoked, or just leave it? ― Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 18:49, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Leave it. They are allowed to remove it. RudolfRed (talk) 18:55, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
Alright sounds good. Wasn't sure if it would still apply if they were blocked. ― Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 19:00, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
Per WP:BLANKING they are allowed to remove the block notice; what they are not allowed to remove is any declined unblock request relating to the current block. --David Biddulph (talk) 21:11, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Removing redirects from a category

I want to remove the entries "Would you like a Jelly Baby?" and "You can call me Ray, or you can call me Jay, or you can call me..." from the category "1970s neologisms", since they are technically catchphrases and not neologisms, but there does not seem to be a way to that since the pages they redirect to are not listed under that category. Kotterdale99 (talk) 19:30, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

So, maybe there's a better way to do this, but here's the cheap trick I use to edit a redirect: Taking your first example, type it in to the search bar. You'll be redirected to the page on the fourth Doctor, but at the top of the page it will say "(Redirected from Would you like a Jelly Baby?)", and there will be a link in there that will take you to the redirect itself and allow you to edit it in the normal fashion. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:36, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
I thought there was a better way also, Beeblebrox, but according to WP:EDRED this is the official way! Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 13:21, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

January 20

Creating a page

Hello, I am looking for someone who is experienced in creating pages to create one for "Jessie Bee," a person I know. I don't know much about Wikipedia, so I would create it myself but I don't know how. I also don't know how to ask people to create a page so I am writing this in hope that someone helps me. Thank you, Aaronairout — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaronairout (talkcontribs) 00:14, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Well, there's Wikipedia:Requested articles, but I wouldn't count on that actually resulting in an article being written. Tips on doing it yourself can be found at Help:Your first article. The standard advice is that if the person is truly notable someone will write an article on them eventually. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:08, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
Hi there! Since you know Jessie Bee, please also read the Wikipedia:Plain and simple conflict of interest guide. GoingBatty (talk) 03:31, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
Aaronairout Has anyone written anything about Jessie Bee before? A quick google search turns up a YouTube channel, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, etc. It looks like she considers herself an influencer/content creator, however, I can't find anywhere where any reliable source has independently written about her (that doesn't mean such sources don't exist, just that I didn't find them in the 5 or so minutes I was willing to spend googling her right now). The gist of all our "notability" guidelines is that a topic is notable if it has "received significant coverage in multiple published[1] secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other,[2] and independent of the subject.[3]" If such sources exist in substantial numbers, then an article could be written here for her. If such sources do not exist, do not attempt to write an article, do not attempt to pay someone else to write an article, down that road lies only heartbreak. ~ ONUnicorn(Talk|Contribs)problem solving 16:04, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ What constitutes a "published work" is deliberately broad.
  2. ^ Sources that are pure derivatives of an original source can be used as references, but do not contribute toward establishing the notability of a subject. "Intellectual independence" requires not only that the content of sources be non-identical, but also that the entirety of content in a published work not be derived from (or based in) another work (partial derivations are acceptable). For example, a speech by a politician about a particular person contributes toward establishing the notability of that person, but multiple reproductions of the transcript of that speech by different news outlets do not. A biography written about a person contributes toward establishing their notability, but a summary of that biography lacking an original intellectual contribution does not.
  3. ^ Autobiography and self-promotion are not the routes to having an encyclopedia article. The barometer of notability is whether people independent of the subject itself have actually considered the subject notable enough that they have written and published non-trivial works that focus upon it. Thus, entries in biographical dictionaries that accept self-nominations (such as the Marquis Who's Who) do not contribute toward notability, nor do web pages about an organization's own staff or members.

33 images added as war propaganda

I'm not sure where to go with this spaghetti mess. I did the research, have the evidence and conclusions, but don't know how to get these deleted.

While trying to research 33 images that were added by two users, two edits, into a single article — Mekelle, an Ethiopian town (see the gallery of 33) — I realized that these images were not of the town. These images had been uploaded by four Wikimedia users, each with similar usernames, naming the files in the same pattern as each other. I think the 4 Wikimedia accounts and the 2 Wikipedia accounts were being operated by the same person. However, they are old enough (2020) to be too stale for a checkuser, and these are the only edits these users made.

The filenames do not match the subject of the images, and the first users (1 uploading 11 files, and 1 who added them to the article) wouldn't clarify the content/caption of the images, though they were asked back then, in July 2020. Three other Wikimedia accounts uploaded 22 more similarly-named images over a two-day period in November 2020, [5] [6] [7] and a second Wikipedia account added them 5 hours later to the Mekelle article.

I have identified most of the 33 images and removed the entire gallery from the article. Very few of the images are from the town of Mekelle (they come from all over Ethiopia). Many are vintage photographs taken by the Italians documenting their WWII occupation using their own photography agency, some are more current tourist agency photos, and some are just undescribed though many of them appear in Facebook and other places online. Most have no attribution, or false attribution. For example, some of the WWII images were uploaded saying their photography date was 1956 and they were published in Ethiopia, when in fact the photos were taken in 1935 & 1936 and published in Italy. The copyright rules in those two countries are different.

A few have 'sources' which are wrong; listing 5 sources for each of several images — 1 is a medical center (completely irrelevant), 3 lead to a professor in Japan who did research on Ethiopian architecture, and 1 to a 2018 book which I have no access to. I contacted the professor and though they recognized some of the vintage images and the subjects of some of the newer images, they said they weren't theirs and didn't use these in their works. In other words, the source given by the Wikimedia user is false.

At least one of these images has already been taken from Commons and published online while thinking [wrongly] that its [false] filename represented a town called "Woyane" (it does not). This article uses the phrase "The image above is the historic center of Woyane, the town where Tigrayan peasants rebelled against their oppression under the Shoan elite in 1943," which is untrue. The image (Commons:File:ታሪካዊ መህል ወያነ ፮ ሽድሽተ Historic Center of Woyane.jpg) is of Gunda Gunde Monastery in a remote hard-to-reach mountain location, and there is no town named "Woyane". "Woyane" is used for pro-Tigray advocacy, and several of the images have a pro-Tigray "battle cry" written into them, including the one I just linked to right above. The uploading account lists the date as "4 November 2020", which is the start date of the Tigray War, and was uploaded a mere 6 days after the start of the war.

In other words, the user used these uploads as war propaganda for their viewpoints related to a current ongoing military conflict!

I recently removed all 33 images from the Mekelle article and I recommend all 33 images be deleted. They appear in Commons and as a File in Wikipedia. I have spent 3 or 4 days identifying these photos, researching and documenting how they were uploaded/added, and the above is but a short summary of my findings/notes (tip of iceberg). I have no idea how to go about cleaning up this mess. I am familiar with WP:AFD (including bundled) and WP:SPI processes, but this is a lot more complicated than just that (and AFD doesn't apply to images or Commons). I've never before gotten involved in WP:IFD or anything related to images. The complexity of this case and the Wikipedia bureaucracy has me stumped on this one. Any ideas how I should proceed? Or is someone willing to communicate with me further about this and take over the "filing" (nomination) process to get this done? Platonk (talk) 06:33, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Just to add to this, the description of the "Historic Centre of Woyane" file noted above reads

Tegaru protect the TIGRAY your freedom and democracy from Eritrean and Ethiopian dictators from envious thieves and murderers protect the history of your ancestors who built the true history of Ethiopia over the centuries and drive away the who want a new genocide of the Tigrayans and the Tigrayans culture. protect the sacrifices of the Tigrayans martyrs

Very clearly a propaganda message  Velella  Velella Talk   09:31, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
  • @Platonk: If your problem is about sending the files to deletion, WP:TWINKLE works very similarly between AfD and FfD (you have switched on Twinkle, right?). If your problem is that you think there is more to be digged but do not have the time/energy to do it, I suppose Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard would be a good place to start with a short summary. TigraanClick here for my talk page ("private" contact) 14:04, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
    • @Tigraan: Twinkle doesn't work in Commons, and isn't useful for "bundled" deletion requests in 'Pedia. Platonk (talk) 16:28, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
  • They will need to be deleted on Commons. Here is Commons' Deletion policy, it'll take you directly to the "how to" part of that page. ~ ONUnicorn(Talk|Contribs)problem solving 15:49, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
    • @ONUnicorn: I found the correct link (tricky interwikilink). Reading it now. Question: If the batch gets approved in Commons for delete-all, will the closer automatically delete the corresponding files from Wikipedia, too, or will I need to follow up with another bundle to WP:IFD? Platonk (talk) 16:28, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
      • Whoops! Interwikilinks are indeed tricky. As ColinFine said below, they files are not hosted here, there's some magic that lets images hosted on Commons be used on all Wikimedia projects. If you scroll down on the image description page here you'll see something that says, "This is a file from the Wikimedia Commons. Information from its description page there is shown below." Once it's deleted there, it's deleted everywhere unless they uploaded a second copy locally somewhere. ~ ONUnicorn(Talk|Contribs)problem solving 17:31, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
Platonk, the ones I've looked at don't exist in Wikipedia: if you search for them in Wikipedia, you get a local copy of the Commons description page. So there is nothing to delete from Wikipedia. --ColinFine (talk) 16:49, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
@ColinFine: So this is not a separate file, but a temporary 'copy' (like a 'mirror')? File:ታሪካዊ መህል ወያነ ፮ ሽድሽተ Historic Center of Woyane.jpg Platonk (talk) 17:09, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
No, Platonk, it's not a copy at all. The Wikipedia software does not embed media from anywhere external - except Wikimedia Commons. It can display pictures from there, and if you pick on the picture, or put a "File:" page in the search bar, it will display a Wikipedia page with the details rather than sending you out of Wikipedia into Commons. But none of the information on the image is held in Wikipedia as far as I know, and the image is certainly not copied. --ColinFine (talk) 19:26, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Well here goes! I spent the day reading "how" to do it and putting together the argument, evidence, etc. I used VisualFileChange.js to submit the mass-deletion request at Commons. Looks like I did the process okay. We'll see how it goes. Platonk (talk) 05:20, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

In the main page (https://www.barilla.com/) there is new Barilla logo. How to extract from the page? --2001:B07:6442:8903:1D45:E702:F5AE:3FE6 (talk) 11:23, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi, the article Barilla (company) covers the entire Barilla group, and not just the consumer pasta brand "Barilla". Therefore the article uses the Barilla Group logo which can be found also on their website https://www.barillagroup.com/en/. – NJD-DE (talk) 11:46, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
The IP is apparently on a mission to purge all Wikipedia languages of the company logo, also in articles which showed both the company logo and pasta brand logo.[8] I have reverted them here [9] but not edited other wikis. It isn't even their only pasta logo but one of many at https://www.barillagroup.com/en/brands/. PrimeHunter (talk) 18:18, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

undo an edit

I attempted to add a citation to the page "Richard Arbib" I only managed to mess it up. can someone undo my edits dated January 2022 for me. thanks 68.188.153.183 (talk) 16:32, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

 Done --David Biddulph (talk) 16:35, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Accessing a deleted article

Suppose I recall something that interested me in an article that has recently been deleted. Is there a way I can access that article and/or ots history notwithstanding?

Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Christofurio (talkcontribs) 20:08, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

@Christofurio: Hi there! Once an article has been deleted, user cannot view the article or its history (but admins can). You might be able to find a Wikipedia mirror site that still has a copy of the article. GoingBatty (talk) 20:17, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
@Christofurio You can try WP:REFUND. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:45, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
Christofurio You might also try Deletionpedia.--Shantavira|feed me 09:44, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Please stop my automated monthly deductions.

Please stop my automatic monthly donation. I did not make this selection. I will continue to make donation in the future. But I need to make them at my timing.. (Redacted).

Luther Burton — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lutherburton (talkcontribs) 21:43, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Lutherburton We editors have nothing to do with the donation process. Please email donate at Wikimedia dot org with any inquiries about donations. 331dot (talk) 21:49, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
@Lutherburton: See more at donate:Cancel or change recurring giving. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:28, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

January 21

WP:Toolong

Why are articles such as Donald Trump allowed to have over 100kB...even though Wikipedia:Article size states articles over 100,000 characters should, "Almost certainly should be divided." Ak-eater06 (talk) 05:16, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Ak-eater06. As should be obvious, it is much more difficult to gain consensus for major changes at an article like Donald Trump than at less contentious and lower visibility articles. It is easier to gain agreement to add a little bit of well-referenced content than to split off a major block of well-referenced content. The day will come when Trump is no longer a factor in day-to-day politics in the U.S., and maybe a "slimming" of that article will become possible at that time. Cullen328 (talk) 05:27, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
If you take a look at Special:LongPages, you will see that there are currently 30 articles that are longer than Donald Trump. Cullen328 (talk) 05:47, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
A huge amount about Donald Trump is already split out to other articles with a summary section in the main article per Wikipedia:Summary style. The guideline about 100 kB is from 2007 when Internet connections were slower and some browsers had technical limitations. Many editors consider it obsolete, or would ignore it if they knew about it. I don't expect Donald Trump to ever go below 100 kB. PrimeHunter (talk) 06:05, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
User:PrimeHunter source for the 2007 claim? (not that I doubt you). Ak-eater06 (talk) 06:50, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
Diff. See also Wikipedia talk:Article size#Documentation of the history of WP:SIZERULE. PrimeHunter (talk) 06:57, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
User:PrimeHunter Thanks. My next question is why haven't these restrictions been removed (especially with our advanced technology fifteen years later). Ak-eater06 (talk) 07:37, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
As an aside, I wouldn't say that size ruling is obsolete. We now have a lot of mobile connections. I don't know about you, but loading that article from my phone is a bit of a mission sometimes! Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 09:50, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

If someone cites a paywall source, does it count as an eligible citation? Or should it be removed?

Ak-eater06 (talk) 07:34, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

See WP:PAYWALL. —Wasell(T) 08:53, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
It's really no different than an offline citation of a book. Just because you can't access it via the internet doesn't invalidate it. Clarityfiend (talk) 10:03, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Fair use image to other language Wikipedia

If a picture is fair-use here, what is the process of using that on other language Wikipedia? Would I need to reupload it on the other Wiki? Or, there is nothing can be done about it? Lightbluerain (Talk💬 Contribs✏️) 12:13, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

You would have to manually upload it to another Wiki. Although first, you would need to check that language Wikipedia's rules on fair use content (some language wikis don't allow any non-free images for example), to make sure it could be used there. Joseph2302 (talk) 12:20, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for the quick response. Lightbluerain (Talk💬 Contribs✏️) 12:32, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Name Disputed tag?

What would be the appropriate template tag for the *name* of the person being disputed. Several IP editors have attempted to change the name of Alpha Kappa Alpha founder Ethel Hedgeman Lyle to Ethyl Hedgemon Lyle over the last week. I'm not sure they are wrong (Alpha Kappa Alpha *itself* has changed the name on their website), but would like to direct them to the talk page rather than having to protect the website. "Disputed" and "Disputed Section" both seem wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Naraht (talkcontribs) 14:06, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

At first glance, {{Disputed inline}} would seem appropriate. --Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 15:19, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Reticon Company:

I was a R&D manufacturing engineer with GM for 40 years. I bought Reticon chips for measuring machines. We bought a machine from Diffracto (Canada) that could measure jet engine part diameters to +/- 12 microinches +/- 3 sigma. It was obvious at the time that once the big boys saw what Reticon was doing they would bury them like IBM did all those small microcomputer companies that had better machines. Reticon was a true pioneer in digital camera development. You know what a pioneer is: a guy lying face down in the dirt with arrows in his back. David Monnier Allison Div, GM 1964-2005 (lasers, holography, microcomputers, robotics, PLCs, computer vision, special machines)16:21, 21 January 2022 (UTC)~~